Mike-EEEMike-EEE

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      An always happy Friday as I just got the TFS complete email :) As this hasn’t hit an insider preview SDK, i’m going to mark this still as “working on it” still BUT … this will be coming to an insider build near you!

      This item heart is markup extensions. There is one item that will not be there however that is relevant to markup extensions, IServiceProvider. I created a new item for that but we are working on this item [https://wpdev.uservoice.com/forums/110705-universal-windows-platform/suggestions/19416094-iserviceprovider-for-markup-extensions-for-wpf-par]. We have created a new one and we are working on that (that includes IProvideValueTarget and INameScope) but feel we have enough to ship this and mark this larger work item done and we do point out in reference to more work items need to happen, namely the work around IServiceProvider.

      Also XamlServices.Load / Save isn’t directly related to markup extenstion so we’re viewing that…

      Mike-EEEMike-EEE commented  · 

      Nice (current) post about using value conversion in WPF via markup extensions:
      http://codingsight.com/simplifying-converters-for-wpf

      Mike-EEEMike-EEE commented  · 

      Awww Clint, big hugs. I have nothing but massive respect for you and the team there. Please don't mistake my good-natured jabs (I used emoticons!) at your *means and processes* as a personal attack (which, in my world, would also mean name-calling, insulting, denigrating, and nasty language, etc.) on you.

      In fact, from my perspective, means and processes are the very reason why your team is operating at a fraction of awesome that I see the rest of MSFT operate these days. They really are a liability.

      That said, I would also kindly ask that you please consider my position as well. Does it seem professional and respectful to ask the community you serve for examples for a particular issue, lose them, and then ask for them again two years later? Even after these examples are once again provided (keep in mind digging through history is not exactly easy or pleasant!), state that they have not been provided and do not provide reasons on why when inquired? Or even ignoring communications altogether (this has happened several times now). Does this seem to you to be a great example of a community leader if not member to follow?

      I feel I am being reasonable here but I am open to feedback, as always. As long as that doesn't mean getting a link to your guidelines. :) I'm on YOUR side here, buddy. Means and processes, maybe not so much.

      Mike-EEEMike-EEE commented  · 

      > As of now, you haven't provided a scenario for YOUR applications.

      Since carrying a conversation doesn't seem to be at the top of Clint's favorite hobbies. :) Christophe: Can you please confirm that the link I provided below contains the types of examples you are looking for, and if you were perhaps able to find the others in that Twitter conversation? Please let me know if there is anything that I can assist with getting you what you are looking for and/or if what I have provided (again twice now spanning nearly two years of time :) ) somehow falls short, and if so why. Clint really didn't go into it or explain, so I am still curious to know why he feels I have not submitted scenarios/examples when, in fact, I have (from my perspective, at least). Thank you for any clarification and/or assistance that you can provide, team!

      Mike-EEEMike-EEE commented  · 

      > not everything is on github

      Haha right! There is always email, I know. ;)

      > We can and do a lot of analysis

      Clearly. ;)

      > As of now, you haven't provided a scenario for YOUR applications.

      Way to make it personal, Clint. ;) But really, I am interested in why the examples in the link I provided below do not count. As I mentioned, there are more from myself and others in that conversation, but I cannot sift through Twitter as well as your historically legendary and award-winning analytics apparatus probably can. Or are you saying that so much time has passed (it's been nearly two years., after all ;) ) that they are no longer valid and do not count for some reason? Please let me know what I am missing here.

      Mike-EEEMike-EEE commented  · 

      Sweet. Thanks, @Christophe! Really appreciate your efforts here, and for putting up with all my grief. As I described to you numerous times I am overwhelmingly invested in this at this point. Can't turn back now. :)

      In addition to discussions here, I think your UserVoice items would benefit tremendously if linked to a GitHub issue. I would suggest for this issue linking it to this one:
      https://github.com/Microsoft/xaml-standard/issues/27

      UserVoice is OK at showing sentiment, but GitHub is wayyyyy better integrated and offers much more granular control over expression of that sentiment. Not to mention, offering the ability to integrate directly with the code responsible for the implementation of the idea/issue.

      Thank you for any consideration!

      Mike-EEEMike-EEE commented  · 

      Additionally, a basic search for IXamlTypeResolver and IRootObjectProvider on GitHub returns 875 code instances and 293 instances, respectively. Really, team. ;)

      https://github.com/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=IXamlTypeResolver+language%3AC%23&type=Code

      https://github.com/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=IRootObjectProvider+language%3AC%23&type=Code

      Mike-EEEMike-EEE commented  · 

      @Clint... thanks, I know that Christophe is indeed part of the Xaml team. I spoke with him on the phone a few weeks ago and was really impressed with his professionalism. I say this as the poor guy essentially listened to me b*tch his ear of for over an hour as we discussed the UWP group. Or I should say, *I* complained about the UWP group. :)

      It was during this phone call that I sadly learned that the examples of markup extensions that I and others provided Tim nearly two years ago were not captured or maintained, so Christophe had to make the request of shame to find them *yet again*. I try to be supportive, but I am sure you can understand the frustration of:

      1) Having to explain to a principle manager of a MSFT UX manager the benefits and power of markup extensions.
      2) Providing examples upon request.
      3) Discuss these markup extensions and more on a phone call.
      4) Wait two years. ;)
      5) Having to explain to the principle design staff of MSFT UX the benefits and power of markup extensions (again).
      6) Having to provide examples of markup extensions once again, which are literally saturated in WPF documentation, examples, and projects throughout the ecosystem.

      You will have to forgive me if I am not feeling the passion here. No other group that has designed a flavor of Xaml has demonstrated such friction to employ a feature that is so obvious and available in literally every other version of Xaml you can find.

      I hope you find this as constructive, and I hope even more you can understand the frustration here. To show I am a good sport, I finally did a little digging and was able to yield one example. Twitter is very difficult to navigate so I am not able to find the others at the moment, but I know they were provided. You will have to forgive me for not feeling the desire to spend more time than I have to as I am not confident it will matter in any meaningful way:

      https://twitter.com/MikeEEE76/status/627098857147600896

      If you read parts of that discussion, it's pretty shocking to see how similar the discussion there is much like the discussion here... two years later. ;)

      Finally, you really should be on the Xaml Standard repo. There is not a lot of love there for UWP, I'm afraid. It's all WPF, Avalonia, and even Noesis. I am holding out hope that now that we have this platform we can land on a, well, standard, that we all can finally be proud of, once again.

      Mike-EEEMike-EEE commented  · 

      I appreciate the reaching out for communication and engaging your users, Christophe! But I do have to be honest and say that your request for examples is disheartening. It would seem that this isn't necessary. They were there in WPF, and also Xamarin.Forms uses a few of them as well. You're basically asking "how can we limit the creativity and possibilities of the users that would like to consume our API?"

      It's important to note that every flavor of Xaml with markup extensions uses IServiceProvider and/or these services in some form or another. Even Noesis -- which is quickly becoming a popular cross-platform Xaml alternative in the vacuum that UWP has created -- utilizes these.

      Now with the advent of the Xaml Standard, it would seem that these services will become a staple moving forward.

      We welcome you and your team to join (and listen to) the community in an open, transparent dialogue, while relying less on being dependent on personal emails, which always seems like a request straight from 1985. ;)

      https://github.com/Microsoft/xaml-standard/

      Mike-EEEMike-EEE commented  · 

      Well great, thanks for the reply, Clint. I guess I am a little confused on what you mean by "one request per topic." Can you please explain what you mean by this?

      Also, as far as being spec'd out, I guess I am a little confused by this as well. I was under the impression that creating a specification is what determines what goes in and what doesn't. Or rather, describes the features that will make it into this request (or topic?). I would definitely appreciate clarification around this process and what you mean by this.

      To add some more context from my perspective, in the .NET Core/ASP.NET Core/Visual Studio/MSBuild/etc. GitHub repos, the specifications are well-known, descriptive issues that are posted where the community can add their feedback to help drive the direction of those issues so that all (participating :) ) points of view are accounted for and risk is minimized for the final deliverable.

      The obvious concern here is that the first version was conducted in an opaque, closed room manner that resulted in something that developers did not like very much. Doing it again in the same way does not seem like the best course of action to ensure that it will successfully address the requested issues here.

      I am definitely open to feedback here if there is something that I am not understanding.

      Mike-EEEMike-EEE commented  · 

      Hi Clint, thinking about this some more after some conversations with a few people. Can you comment on the spec that is occurring with this? There is also a great conversation with the System.Xaml port for .NET Core with lots of feedback for UWP's Xaml model. Well I say feedback, but it's not really all positive and is mostly along the same lines as what birbilis shares below.

      Are the efforts here related in any way to the .NET Core request? Obviously it would be ideal to limit overlap and to leverage work done in one area to solve another (if at all possible).

      Additionally, is there any way to be a part of this process and for the community to provide their own feedback for what is taking place? It would be great to ensure we hit the right notes this time to promote the long-term success/viability of UWP going forward.

      Thank you in advance for any clarity/assistance you can provide here.

      Mike-EEEMike-EEE commented  · 

      AWESOME!!! Thank you Clint and team!!! Took a while -- maybe a little TOO long, haha -- but we finally got there. Or are getting there. Sorta like turning the Titanic. :P Looking forward to the progress. :)

    • 9 votes
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        Mike-EEEMike-EEE supported this idea  · 
        Mike-EEEMike-EEE commented  · 

        ... and many other services, if needed. :P Thank you for capturing this and adding it for the community.

      • 156 votes
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          Mike-EEEMike-EEE commented  · 

          Thank you for your efforts, Morten!

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